Sha Zukang: Current Situation in the Asia Pacific and China’s Asia-Pacific Policy

                                     Sha Zukang                                                          Interviewer: Wu Xinbo

                                     Former Under-Secretary-General                        Executive Dean,

                                     for Economic and Social Affairs,                         Institute of International Studies,

                                     United Nations;                                                    Fudan University;

                                     Honorary Dean,                                                    Vice Dean,

                                     Institute of International Studies,                         Fudan Development Institute

                                     Fudan University, China

“For now, our policy has entered a phase requiring carefully review and summarize, and so as to keep moving forward. A proper view of interest is now forming: we need benefit ourselves, and meanwhile benefit others.”

Wu Xinbo: Good morning, Mr. Sha. Thank you for taking our high-end interview. Today we are going to talk about current situation in the Asia Pacific and China’s Asia-Pacific Policy. First of all, I would like to hear your judgement on the Asia-Pacific general situation.

Sha Zukang: I would like to elaborate this question in the following aspects. Firstly, in terms of economic situation now, the Asia-Pacific situation is satisfying compared to other regions especially after the global financial crisis. The Asia-Pacific area has maintained economic vitality and driven the global economic development in some degree. Secondly, the political situation is generally fine. Since China’s reform and opening up, some cooperative mechanisms have been established with Chinese promotion and joint efforts, summits such as APEC, China-ASEAN summit have been gradually put into operation to promote the understanding among different countries which still needs to be further improved. Thirdly, the issue of security conflicts stands out in this region, e.g. Diaoyu Islands issue between China and Japan has been on edge as a great concern internationally. Moreover, China’s relations with the Philippines and Vietnam to some extent bring negative impact. To sum up, the general situation in the Asia Pacific is peaceful and stable compared to other regions around the world.

Wu Xinbo: Now China’s rapid development and the drifting balance of power in APAC are overarching concern for all over the world in terms of APAC situation. Perhaps China is going to play an outstanding role in the development of APAC situation. What is your opinion of current and future China’s role in the development of APAC situation?

Sha Zukang: China is the biggest developing country of the whole world both in scale and rate of growth. As Premier Li mentioned, during the last 3 decades, China has made the achievement of reform that took developed countries centuries to accomplish, which I am all for. It is universally recognized that China’s own growth has promoted the economic development not only in APAC but around the world. The prospect of China’s economic development is still bright in my view. But some uncertainties still lie ahead such as how far our political and economic transformation will go. Besides, the developed countries’ attitude like US, EU towards China’s rise also counts from the side of external relations. Also we are obliged to make our neighbors understand the situation of China’s peaceful development and rise, which also needs mutual cooperation. In this case, each side especially China has long way to go.

Wu Xinbo: That is to say, diplomatic relations between China and other countries in APAC is not one-way but also depends on how other countries deal with China’s rise and development, major interest and core interest. So what do you think are the most crucial points in China’s Asia- Pacific policy?

Sha Zukang: Our policy is correct on the whole. As we all know, the good neighbor foreign policy proposed by the previous government has made great achievement as well as a few problems. Let me take the China-Japan issue as an example. To be honest, China-Japan relations are not as well as before, even bottom out after restoring diplomatic ties. As to Korean nuclear issue, three principles has always been upheld, i.e. denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula, resolve the issue through peaceful negotiation and maintain the peaceful and stable Korean Peninsula. The result is we did what we made commitment to do, but the effect is not as good as we expected. North Korea was a nuclear-free country at best with ambition and desire to develop nuclear weapons. Now it turned out be a nuclear state. Due to this issue, Japanese government has announced to do constitutional amendment for strengthening its national defense. The United States also has intensified its military influence in APAC in accordance with its rebalance strategy. South Korea holds great concerns about it. The influence of Japan and US has intensified the nuclear issue to some extent. Russia as our neighbor has good relationship with China but its relationship with Japan is not at the best time. Then let us talk about Southeast Asia situation. At present, our relationship with Philippines is getting worse, resulting in ASEAN's split. Some countries do not agree or support the Philippines and even are against it. But some others such as Vietnam support it. In this situation, we can see what problems we have now. Then we move to Vietnam. Our relationship with Vietnam is exactly worse than before, and even exclusion happens after China-Vietnam War, which is unexpected for us. As to the South Asia, the situation is good in general. We have taken great efforts to improve our relationship with India and Pakistan. In a word, some issues need to be resolved in East Asia, Southeast Asia and South Asia. The only good news is that the Middle Asia situation is getting better now. Generally speaking there are positive and negative aspects ahead that we are supposed to deal with. Words alone are no proof. We are obliged to implement the good neighbor foreign policy based on past experience and strategy. As the Chinese old saying goes, “Who gain the common aspiration of the people, who can rule the world”. We should implement our policy seriously, meticulously and practically. It is not proper to mention diplomacy deficiency, but from our side, we should analyze our situation and carry out reform measures.

On the other hand, the diplomacy is not one-way but needs external cooperation, i.e. we should try our best to implement some policies and measures in terms of specific circumstances. In this regard, we should be more realistic. China is the biggest developing country but we should know our limitations. Never had a country, no matter how powerful it is, could work independently in the context of economic globalization. But at least we should try our best to do it. We should think about more details about the good neighbor policy. For instance, we should give more and get less from the Pacific Asia's developed states like Japan and Australia. In terms of different countries and their uniqueness, we should treat and benefit them differently. Apart from taking tolerance policy towards other states, we should keep us independent. After all, any policy of Chinese government serves Chinese people first, then we should communicate with the world especially our neighbors to realize our objectives. So we should further subdivide our policy by definitions and classifications. Mr. Lu Xun once said that we should reveal ourselves relentlessly. For now, our policy has entered a phase requiring carefully review and summarize, and so as to keep moving forward. A proper view of interest is now forming: we need benefit ourselves, and meanwhile benefit others. There is also a big transition in our diplomacy idea, a strategic change. From drafting to the specific conducting of the policy, I am very encouraged by the work we have done so far. But I’m getting old. How I wish I could be ten years younger and go to the first line again to make a contribution.

And I’d add one thing. Now we have a lot of problems, caused by many reasons, yet the most fundamental reason lies in the rapid development of China. There’s nothing wrong for a rapid growth, but the long continuous development has produced a series of problems. In this sense, our problems are of our own making, are growing pains, and we should be happy for this, since the frustrations brought by difficulties in the progress are totally different from that by the stagnation or retreat.

Wu Xinbo: So let’s go back to the Asia-Pacific policy we mentioned before. A major issue plaguing us now is the disputes on maritime sovereignty and rights that left over by history. We have 14 neighboring countries sharing land border with us, with 12 of which, mainly through mutual understanding and accommodation by diplomatic negotiations, we have settled territorial disputes. To what extent do you think that our experience of settling these border disputes could be used to solve the maritime issue?

Sha Zukang: Territorial issue, no matter land or maritime, always caused great public concern. It is a family property left by our ancestors, and we descendants should solve it properly. This is true for us Chinese, and so is the same for them foreigners. We should stand in each other’s shoes on this issue. Back to one hundred million years ago, who owns the earth? It belongs to on one. In fact, since we have history recorded, to take Europe as an example, does it ever have a fixed boundary? Never. The history of Europe is a history of wars. And the five thousand years’ history of China, to be honest, is full of domestic wars. Firstly, the territorial issue is sensitive, and it will easily incite radical nationalism and patriotism. We all have no objection to this. It is sensitive for China, and so it is for the other side. Secondly, the territory is not eternal. You may feel “none of my business” towards current disputes between the US and Russia on oil and gas. But when you open the history book, you will find out that the area once belonged to China. Please don’t get me wrong. This is by no means to say that we should take that area back, not at all. There is only one thing I’d like to point out: the territory is sacrosanct, but it could be adjusted. Borders are changing. About sixty to seventy years ago Mongolia was still a part of China, right? Thus in the past, no one can settle territory and territorial waters disputes without the war and the winner takes it all. So, over the past century the Maritime Law and International Law were produced and are all dominated by western countries. Today, considering the nuclear weapon and its launch vehicles, the world is at the stage where wars, to be a little exaggerated, could lead to the destruction of human beings and the earth. Therefore we should avoid using war to settle territorial disputes. You say the local war may work, but how can you make sure it won’t get expanded? Can you control it? Or can the other party control it? So that is why China proposes to peacefully settle the disputes. This is neither to surrender, nor is Chinese government weak. In my opinion, to solve land or maritime territorial issues by wars is unrealistic and infeasible. Now that the non-peaceful means is excluded, only the peaceful means is left. So we only have one way that to both take and give on a basis of mutual understanding and accommodation. However, it happens sometimes you want to solve it peacefully based on mutual understanding, while the other doesn’t. We should focusing 100% on maintaining peace, and meanwhile get well prepared with 200% energy to face the situation when the other party chooses a nonpeaceful way. In order to get a peaceful solution, we must have enough strength to tell the other party: the peaceful settlement is your only choice. If you insist on adopting non-peaceful means, sorry, I’m afraid that you’d better think twice. So I say there should be two 100%. In this sense, it is a must for us to strengthen China’s military modernization indefatigably. So President Xi Jinping says, the army should be able to fight and win. Why? It is the best way to prevent wars, enhance the negotiation ability to settle disputes peacefully, and to make the other party consider choosing such a path.

Wu Xinbo: In our Asia-Pacific Policy and neighboring diplomacy, the U.S. factors are important. The U.S. often makes our surrounding security environment and neighborhood policy complicated. How do you think we should deal with the U.S. factors in our neighboring diplomacy?

Sha Zukang: I have dealt with U.S.A. for decades. It is bare, a real hegemony, never plays virtual and acts as a tyrant with its muscles. I love reading Kungfu novels, and I know that, no matter how superb your martial art is, you have a vital gate. Once I find where the vital gate is, I can defeat you anyway. We should be confident on this. The U.S. is not born a superpower. It was a British colony, so there was the War of Independence. It also experienced the Civil War. It was still a poor developing country at that time, while it becomes a superpower for the moment. Through their efforts, Americans judged the hour and sized up the situation, adopted a correct strategy from maintaining basic benefits of the U.S. in the WWI and WWII, and obtained the maximum benefits with minimum sacrifice. Consequently, today’s place and influence of the U.S. owes to the correct strategy and the efforts and sweat of politicians. We should learn to think empathy. Now the U.S. is trying so hard to maintain and extend its superpower and leader position. But with the huge historical vicissitudes, the development of China has caused a panic in United States from the heart. In order to keep its position, it intends to expand and to contain China. USA is a practical country: it has dreams but also pretty realistic. It has such kind of thought is understandable, while its ability fails to keep up. What’s more, with globalization developing, every country is inextricably interwoven with each other. Certainly the United States still takes the lead, but in the context of global society, its influence gets relatively smaller. In current international situations, the U.S. is relatively restrained, for instance, on Syria chemical weapons and North Korea nuclear issues, and it also need to adopt a most favorable measure according to its strength and the risk. America has its concerns, while China has its own traditions. Like President Xi Jinping said, Chinese people has no expansion gene in history--indeed we don’t have any, otherwise we should have had expanded our territory long ago, or Zheng He’ voyages should have been an expedition to occupy other countries. The Chinese nation is a peace-loving nation. With a good image of a kind and wise elder, the nation is particularly inclusive and friendly, and stressing virtue and morality. I think we lack domineering, and we are benevolent. The Pacific Ocean has connected China and the United States closely, and President Xi says that the Ocean is big enough to contain both of our countries. Based on the above, I deem that Sino-US cooperation is totally feasible. Besides, under the new historical conditions, e.g. globalization, information technology, nuclear weapon development, etc., China has timely proposed a new pattern of relationship between big powers. The United States has no other choice but to accept it, since this policy is in line with American interests, and of course, also in line with China’s interests, as well as the interests of the region and other countries all over the world. It is clear to all that the development of China is unstoppable. Different from those in Western countries, we have opened a Chinese-culture-based characteristic economic development mode and road. It could be taken as reference by other countries, but should never be copied blindly. The new pattern of big power relationship policy is proposed on the basis of a mutual understanding of Sino-US relations, the recognition of our own strengths and weaknesses, and the need for common interests. Regardless of the U.S. presidential elections and government transitions, the benefit of the United States is unchanging. China also firmly safeguards its interests, and this is the same. We two countries should not be troubled by the change of governments. For me, Sino-US relation is mixed with love and hate feelings. The key point is that when should we love and when should we hate; how much should we love and how much should we hate: it is depending on situations. To what extent could Sino-US relations be good, and to the same extent it could turn bad; good relations would turn worse, while bad ones would get better. China and America are two great nations, and are capable of dealing with Sino-US relations. We have such wisdom. We should be confident on this.

Wu Xinbo: Well, thanks so much for Ambassador Sha to accept the interview of Shanghai Forum. It is the first time for you and your wife to attend Shanghai Forum, and could you please give us some suggestions or expectations on our future work? Please send a word for Shanghai Forum.

Sha Zukang: Shanghai Forum has been held nine times and accumulated a lot of experience. The professional preparation, good selected targeted questions, and indepth discussions are all great, and sure there is still some room for improvement. Generally speaking it is quite good. I have attended and organized international conferences for decades, and have organized the 2012 Sustainable Development Summit in Brazil, the largest and highest-level conference in UN history as called by Mr. Ban Ki-Moon. So I am qualified to say that Shanghai Forum is indeed an excellent forum. If you ask me to send a word for it, then I should say: Shanghai Forum is very good, and I believe it will be better and better.